Curse

Sirius-NZ · May 08, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

I should also note; in Diablo 2 you never needed to level up all the way to 99. It was so time-consuming that only a few people ever did it, and the rewards were pretty marginal by that point anyway.

Re: GW2 again - if there is no level cap in general, there probably will be in PvP, unless levels stop doing anything at some point.

Also, if the whole egalitarian low-level-cap thing is so good, why not take it to extremes and have a level cap of 1? No character development at all, you just play through the game and against others as-is, like an FPS.

Just.nl · May 08, 2008, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Lvl 20 is fine because you play so long gw already and you dont know anything else.. but if it gets 30/40/50.. but that you get a lower reward so it cost the same time to get lvl 20.. with lvl 30 or 40.. but GW2 getting amazing.. can't wait!

Th Fooster · May 08, 2008, 07:07 AM // 07:07

level cap is essential to game balance. now as to how high the cap is, thats open for debate.imagine.. LV 1500 warrior lfg...i mean... come on..the monsters need to be proportinate to the level. soo you get a guy thats level 300 in a 1000+ area, rediculous.Im sure they could make it so that there cant be a difference of mroe tha say... 5 levels with in the party.. so a lv 10 cna take 1 lv 10 and 1 lv 5 and thats the leeway. thye could implement something liek that but what wuld happen to the monsters? what level would they be? would the server detect the level of your group and load in the appropriate monsters? that could be lag issues there. Balance is what made guild wars work. despite how we hate the nerf bat, it keeps the game in check. in WoW its all about who has the right gear. in GW that gear is available to all at a cheap price. I hope and pray that GW2 is not jsut a different form of WoW in its core structure

Laylat · May 08, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I haven't read every person's comment, but in my opinion, a character with any level doesn't really meant that more time has to be invested to get that character to that level. In other words, getting to level 100 doesn't have to take months... it can take a week, for example. Therefore, I think it would be better to ask “if you would like to have a level cap, how long would you want to play to get to that level cap?”

Personally, I think that a duration of a month or month and a half for a casual player to reach a ’plateau’ would be acceptable. The ‘plateau’ idea was mentioned a few times by other people. PVE and PVP characters at this level would have the same stats. The ‘plateau’ level obviously doesn’t mean level cap. To get to the level cap (yes, I voted for level cap

), one would be required to go through certain quests, etc… Basically saying, it’s not an easy thing. In this way, not many people would be able to get to the level cap and this would stop the “need level # only”. In addition, people with levels higher than the level cap are granted access to areas where other’s can’t go. So, you have an area allowing only levels, say, 40-45 can go. Another allowing only levels 46-50. This will ensure that one level isn’t favoured over another.

In the end, even having a level 1000 can mean nothing if it takes a week to level up to that. So what if big numbers are displayed on screen? You hitting a monster with 100 for 1 damage a hit is the same as hitting a monster with 10000 for 100 damage a hit.

Red Sonya · May 08, 2008, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Quote:

Levels and experience are simply a means to gauge your character's progress, and shows how much time you've spent actually playing.

Actually this is wrong because skill power is also based on level and the attributes you gain per level. You don't get your maximum hit points until you hit level 20 and Nightfall and Factions gives you the +30 bonus attribute points waaaay too early compared to Prophecies. Most were most likely level 20's before they even got the last of their +15 attribute points in Prophecies I really hope they go back to that method of attribute and skill power gain. With 100 levels and perhaps 2pts of attributes per level that would take a good long time if the experience gain is low enough in the beginning. The real ruinage of GW started with the Beacons Perch to Droks run they allowed. It never should have been open or there should have be level restrictions on max gear which imho should have been 20 not 2. GW started going downhill from that point it was allowed and has since gone downhill in the eyes of many for so many game breaking changes and nerfs.

Thing is everyone will not be completely happy with GW2 just like GW1. It really depends on how great the changes are and how much more of a goal oriented game it becomes. Without unlimited goals and never ending quests (need a lot of random dungeons in it) the game will ultimately fail and people will lose interest as quickly as they have in GW1. If it doesn't have romper room easy gain and leveling most of the casuals here won't like it. If it doesn't have more than what GW has now then the hard core or those that can play numerous hours won't like it either. If they want to bring more than just what the community of players are now, they will have to put in some WOW/Evercrak type elements into it to gain those new purchasers. I've seen a lot of sequels and the majority of them have always changed much of the gameplay from what it was in the origional to draw in a new and different type of crowd. I really don't think GW2 is going to be ultimately directed at the GW1 community as much as it's going to be directed and bringing in a whole new bunch of gamers of a different style of play. But, I repeat myself.

We're really still at the wait and see portion of it all. There's no use really arguing what isn't solid factual information by anyone posting here as to what GW2 is going to offer or have. Maybe not too much longer we'll get a sneak preview or something that will give us some ideas we can really agrue about.

arcanemacabre · May 08, 2008, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

Actually this is wrong because skill power is also based on level and the attributes you gain per level.

Actually, no, it's right. As your level increases, and your skills become more powerful, etc, etc, etc... guess what: so too do the monsters you fight. So in actuality, you are running on that treadmill. You think you're getting more powerful, when you're really just keeping up with the game. Once you hit 20 (or whatever the level cap may be), you are dealing just as much damage as you were when you were 1, you're just dealing it to other 20's instead of other 1's.

So yes, in the end:

Quote:

Levels and experience are simply a means to gauge your character's progress, and shows how much time you've spent actually playing.

Red Sonya · May 08, 2008, 07:30 AM // 07:30

All monsters aren't level 20 or 20+ once you reach level 20. You can go back to any area before level 20 and find monsters from 1 to 19. You do not have your full force of power until you are level 20 there for no you are wrong. You do not gain all your max abilities until you are level 20. So, once I reach my MAX power I can then go back to other earlier areas of the game and SOLO what I once required henchies or other players to kill. Thus my max power came from leveling.

Yawgmoth · May 08, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

No level cap please, max = insta boring.
Instead go with flat power level curve and infinite character development!

After gerring a certain level (like 100) the power gains should become smaller and smaller with further levels and gaining next levels should be harder and harder.
The game should still be much more about skill than time spent, should be accessible for new players after a year or two, but the gameplay should remain rewarding forever - you should always be able to improve a little tiny bit of something of your character.

No clearly visible level cap, no possibility of reaching any highest level doesn't mean we would see massive differences in the levels, nothing like that. Just look at my example:
1. Let's say level 100 is the highest level that is required for anything that requires a level, and this level is reasonably attainable for anyone by just completing the main storyline, doing every nonelite mission/dungeon at least once and doing most of sidequests (or by doing some hunting/farming, without any major grind)
2. Hardcore players should be able to reach that level 100 after ~2 weeks, it would take the more casual players about 2-3 months.
3. Characters can gain further levels above that level 100 but further levels take significantly longer to get, increasingly longer and harder, and give smaller benefits.
4. After 1 Year after release dedicated hardcore players would have one character past lev125 and a handful of most extreme players would be getting past 130. Casual players would reach 110 with one and have maybe 2 alts at 100 or just play one and get close to 115.
5. After 2 years and at least 1 big game expansion the majority of active playerbase should have at least 1 level 120, the hardcores would
6. After 3 years first player may reach level 150... still VERY few players are at 140...
7. While there's no clear level cap, nobody will get to 170 ever. Expansion will provide faster ways for getting from 100 to 110 or a little higher,

And ways to prevent the game from becoming a degenerate grindfest:
1. Every possible XP source should have a level and the XP gain should be smaller if that level is significantly lower than yours.
2. Every repeatable XP source should have an additional diminishing returns mechanism, so you will eventually gain zero or close to zero XP after killing 1000s of the same mobtype, even if your level is lower than the mobs.
3. Main and biggest XP sources should be: Primary and secondary single quests/missions and various one time achievements (like nongrind GW1 titles). Repeatable quests (diminishing), random hunt bounties (gain based on boss level), special events, or just killing various stuff (yes, it should be possible to reach very high levels by just killing a large variety of mobs including major big bosses, variety is good)

Having a level cap is wrong also because reaching it becomes the goal for almost everyone, and if it's hard and takes time, people will complain about grind... With No Max and with minimal power gains at higher levels reaching certain levels won't be a goal by themselves.

arcanemacabre · May 08, 2008, 07:36 AM // 07:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

All monsters aren't level 20 or 20+ once you reach level 20. You can go back to any area before level 20 and find monsters from 1 to 19. You do not have your full force of power until you are level 20 there for no you are wrong. You do not gain all your max abilities until you are level 20. So, once I reach my MAX power I can then go back to other earlier areas of the game and SOLO what I once required henchies or other players to kill. Thus my max power came from leveling.

Really? And how often do you do that when you aren't farming for festival junk? If your idea of fun is 'getting to max power,' then wailing on everything below you, then yes, I can see why you'd want any level system. I just find it incredibly boring, which is why I'm totally against it.

nekopowa · May 08, 2008, 08:27 AM // 08:27

No, as long as the higher levels are just a sign of experience (like skill points these days) without any stat bonuses.

-Martian- · May 08, 2008, 08:38 AM // 08:38

If GW2 has no level cap, I won't buy it. (Too hard get fun in a game with an undefined level cap and level discrimation in PUGs is not a nice thing)

If GW2 has a low-medium-high level cap, prolly I'll buy it.

JR · May 08, 2008, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by nekopowa

No, as long as the higher levels are just a sign of experience (like skill points these days) without any stat bonuses.

Gold farm bots > everyone else.

Gun Pierson · May 08, 2008, 09:07 AM // 09:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loviatar

GW2 as they have stated will be a completely
new better game.

Well I really hope so but we'll all be the judge of that when the time is right.

Ofcourse they say it's gonna be better, they have to sell copies.

I'm still in favor of no levels and xp bar at all:
- no grind
- no discrimination
- no low level areas you never return to once you get passed them
- it fits with skill over time played

Yang Whirlwind · May 08, 2008, 10:39 AM // 10:39

Since I started Raptor farming I have made about 13 mil. xp from that alone.
Considering GWII will undoubtedly have farming possibilities as well. To me, it more becomes a question of not letting "power farmers" gain too much game advantage (on top of the gold) from doing something that is essentially counterproductive to the sociable aspects of the game.

Balan Makki · May 08, 2008, 01:05 PM // 13:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

As your level increases, and your skills become more powerful, etc, etc, etc... guess what: so too do the monsters you fight. So in actuality, you are running on that treadmill. You think you're getting more powerful, when you're really just keeping up with the game. Once you hit 20 (or whatever the level cap may be), you are dealing just as much damage as you were when you were 1, you're just dealing it to other 20's instead of other 1's.

I agree, and having levels is virtually the same as having no levels.

--Levels exist to throttle content; spoon feeding content to payers so they do not rush through the game. (There are alternatives, see GW1)
--Levels exist to give the illusion of vertical progress, see above quote.
--Levels are required to hook (and sometimes addict) a player into a "Pay to Play" business model, via Grind for Stats.
--Levels exist to create a PvE competitive environment Vs other players.
--Levels stratify the player base, via Stats, segregating and ultimately separating potential relationships and other player interactions.
--Levels give hardcore players a sense of self worth, and sense of of empowerment over more casual players via Stats.
--Levels make content obsolete.
--Levels eventually make the entire game obsolete, as new players will not buy into something that requires months/years of grind to catch up. (see GW1's longevity and inclusive design.)
--Levels cater to grinds, obsessive gameplay and those not smart enough to understand the value of time, or the detriment of time waisted.
--Levels are the industry standard; fans of RPGs/MMOs have nothing else to gage such systems against. The industry has yet to discover fire and still eats its meat raw. Metaphorically speaking, Players still like to eat their meat raw, they've never tasted cooked food.
--Levels require no skill to aquire, only time and grind.
--Levels can be maxed without player interaction using bots, exploits, services etc. . .
--Levels are unnecessary and should be scrapped for a better system in GW2

Proff · May 08, 2008, 01:09 PM // 13:09

level 20 cap plz

JR · May 08, 2008, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balan Makki

...

Excellent post.

4thVariety · May 08, 2008, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I want a level 1 cap. In all seriousness

Why? Because levels are good for nothing. All levels are really good for is the calculation of damage bonuses. So either you get +10 damage, or the monster gets +10 damage. But we don't need levels for that! In a best case scenario the designers can use levels to direct how the players progress though the world. Instead of a wall you just hit a mob of level 205 Bookahs, which is the same as putting a door with a key there. (Gain Key from Zaishen Keymaster after reaching level 200)

Levels also ultimately lead to Grind(TM). How do you combat a level 10 player? Have him face a lvl15 Skale. How do you combat a level 20 player? Throw some Lvl 28 Bison at him. You see where this is leading? AWAY from grind-free Guild Wars and back to gindaholic Japanese RPG. I thought GW did not want to copy other RPGs, yet levels are retained religiously.

What is giving you REALLY an advantage in GW?
* Availability of Skills
* Availability of Attributes (some requiring Grind, like Sunspear)
* Availability of Attribute points to invest in Attributes
* Health
* Gear

With the exception of gear, all those things are linked to levels for totally arbitrary reasons. We can distribute them ANY way without having to concern ourselves about a number next to our name. How often have you looked at ["X Rull0R X" 20], thought it was good, but only during the mission did you discover the insanity of his build. Already levels mean nothing, putting more into the game will not make it better, it will make it worse. Why bother checking if he uses a good build with good attribute distribution when you can just go "Oh well he is 52, that is enough". That will lead to level discrimination, which will force players to grind levels, the very thing GW was supposed not to be about.

So let us be level 1 for all eternity. Character growth is learning new skills on quests. Or unlock new attributes on quests as well as the ability to raise them one more point. We already have Attribute point quests. Why not hand out more of them instead of plain XP. Ultimately XP WILL be useless, meaningless, functionless. Why start using it as a measure when it will ultimately be useless after the player hits a power cap? If it is the catalyst of progress it will keep you from creating meaningful expansion packs. Instead you have to stop people from gaining XP at current max level, else they will have outgrinded the expansion on the day it is out.

We don't like levels, we like what comes with them, which is usually a few health points, five attribute points and a bit of damage reduction while fighting monsters. We call that character growth. but there are a million ways to deliver all of this without defaulting back to levels. Play Shadowrun (the pen and paper RPG), this is how it is done right without levels.

super strokey · May 08, 2008, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Id like a nice long game where there is a reason for lots of levels and what not, kinda like the way a jrpg works. A slow change in bad guy strength and a slow change in yours.

Master Mxyzptlk · May 08, 2008, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I'd take any level cap that I can reach without having to dedicate my life to it. I wouldn't mind higher than 20, but seriously, I want to play the game, not grind away. If I wanted major grinding, I'd play Wow, or go for GW1 titles.